FRANCIS FUKUYAMA, AUTHOR "THE END OF HISTORY:" I don`t think so. I think that it`s a challenge that we all have to take seriously, because radical Islamism, of the sort represented by Osama bin Laden, or the Taliban, or the regime in Iran is a very anti-liberal, anti-Western doctrine that contests some of the fundamental tenets, just as fascism or communism did, in a separation of politics and religion, the embrace of consumers in a market economy, and so I think that it is really an ideological challenge. The question is, how powerful is it? And I think the answer to that is not nearly as powerful as socialism ever was. I mean there are a number of reasons for that. First, unlike socialism, this is really not a doctrine that appeals to anybody who is not Muslim to begin with, and I would say that even among Muslims, it is one force that is contending against both traditional Islam on the one hand and a more liberal version on the other, and it`s something that I think in the end doesn`t really have an answer as a systematic ideology for the things that ail the Muslim world. You have had two countries, Iran and Afghanistan, that have lived under this very strict Islamic dictatorship and I just don`t see any evidence that any Muslim in the end really enjoys that experience.

JANA WENDT: But in this case, would you admit that really some damage has been done to this theory by those jets flown into the World Trade Centre on September 11?

FRANCIS FUKUYAMA: I think the real question that could undermine, in a way, the system as a whole, is the combination of the radical ideology put together with weapons of mass destruction. If you could imagine somehow a world that didn`t have nuclear weapons, or anthrax, or this sort of thing, this would be a doctrine that would affect certain countries in the world but really wouldn`t be a big threat to the West or any of its institutions, but I think it`s only when you combine it - I mean, fascism was a problem because it was combined with power of the most powerful nation state in central Europe - Germany. This one isn`t associated with a powerful nation state but potentially could be associated with a dirty bomb smuggled into Lower Manhattan, and if that is the case, then that is a big threat, I think, to the theory and to the West as a whole. So the question is, is that really what we are facing? Are we now in a period where these non-state actors will routinely employ weapons of mass destruction and try to use them against the US or potentially other countries?

JANA WENDT: And the answer is, do you think?

FRANCIS FUKUYAMA: I tend to think that`s not the world we are living in. I sort of think that September 11th was a case where they got lucky and they managed to pull off a really spectacular act of terrorism. They are very dangerous. They will try to do it again. They will certainly try to get weapons of mass destruction, but their ability to actually get them and use them and organise a plot and not be discovered, I think, is another question. I guess I`m more optimistic of the ability of the world to keep control of that.

JANA WENDT: After September 11, the US, or many people in it, seemed to be asking, "Why do they hate us?" Do you have an answer to that?

FRANCIS FUKUYAMA: Well, that`s in a way the wrong question, because a lot of people can hate the US and not decide to get into an airliner and just kill people in this nihilistic fashion, so you get anti-globalisation protesters and trade unionists and lots of other people who have reasons to be unhappy with the US. And, you know, there are clearly multiple reasons for that. I think that one big problem is that the US is now so dominant in virtually all aspects of power, it`s not just military, but it`s cultural, it`s economic, it`s political, that I think it simply generates a tremendous amount of resentment at the inability to control American behaviour, or to influence American policy.

JANA WENDT: There are, nonetheless, some obvious anomalies in US foreign policy. For instance, Saudi Arabia is responsible for nurturing the Wahabist Islam that was responsible for September 11th, after all, and the US sees Saudi Arabia still as an ally and a friend. Does that dent the credibility of the US?

FRANCIS FUKUYAMA: Well, I`m sure that it dents the credibility of the US. I think that the US is going through a real rethinking of its relationship with Saudi Arabia because most Americans realise Saudi Arabia is not just a quirky desert theocracy, it`s really quite a dangerous country, so I think it is a relationship that is in the process right now, as we speak, of being rethought.

JANA WENDT: You say that if there is any state that is going to lead Islam out of its present difficulties, it is in fact Iran but the US President labels it as part of the axis of evil. Does that make sense to you?

FRANCIS FUKUYAMA: Well, if you read that speech closely, you would see that he treated Iran differently from Iraq or even North Korea. He said it is undergoing a reform process. I think everybody in Washington understands that the basic trend in Iran is a positive one. I mean, this is going to be a reforming, much more liberal society.

JANA WENDT: But, if they understand it, the words "axis of evil" do not reflect that understanding, do they?

FRANCIS FUKUYAMA: Well, it`s just...No, it is just tactics. I think when you`re dealing with that kind of reform tactic...reforming country where you have both conservatives and reformers, it is not obvious that the appropriate thing is simply to be nice to the conservatives. A lot of times you have to be a little bit tough. In fact, a lot of people in Iran have responded to the "axis of evil" by using that as a stick with which to beat the conservatives, saying, "Look, we need to move forward in this relationship, but as long as you do things like, you know, send the "Katrin-A" to arm the Palestinian Authority, we`re not going to make progress." That`s just a matter of tactics. That`s not a big issue.

JANA WENDT: You say that in the long term you are optimistic that the liberal democratic system will survive, will win out. And yet the principal champion of that system in the world is the US. There`s a great deal of anti-Americanism around. Do you think that could damage the survival chances of liberal democracy?

FRANCIS FUKUYAMA: No, it`s not going to damage the survival chances of liberal democracy per se, it`s going to lead to a lot of bad blood between the US and its close European allies, Australia and other countries potentially around the world. I think that the issue really is - well, there`s a principled issue with the Europeans having to do with national sovereignty that I think will continue to be a very neuralgic problem, that, you know, the Europeans are really giving up sovereignty to supernational institutions, like the EU or the International Criminal Court, and I think that the United States is just not prepared do that, that, you know, Americans believe that democratic legitimacy can reside at no level higher than the nation state and that nation states can hand that off to international organisations, but the Europeans really have a very different view of that and I think that`s going to be a big problem in the future and I honestly don`t see a way that that`s going to get better in the future rather than continuing to be a point of controversy. But that`s not the same as undermining liberal democracy, although it is based on two different understandings of where democracy in the international system resides.

JANA WENDT: Francis Fukuyama, we will have to leave it there. Thank you very much for your time.