George Negus interviews Zimbabwean musician, Thomas Mapfumo.

Dubbed as the Lion of Zimbabwe, Mapfumo is known internationally for blending traditional Shona mbira music with western instruments since the early 70s. At the time, singing in Shona was uncommon, and in the context of the escalating war, automatically political.

Video: Thomas Mapfumo and the Blacks Unlimited play one of their trademark songs.

In Pictures: Thomas Mapfumo in the Dateline studio.

Have Your Say: What role do musicians and artists play in political and social change?

His songs often reflected the concerns of society; hardships in rural areas and the oppression of Shona culture by white rulers.

However it wasn't until the late 80s when his music focused on questioning the country's leadership, who he believed had failed the people. In 1989 he released the album 'Corruption', which openly criticised President Robert Mugabe and his government.

Shortly after the release, Mapfumo became the target of government harassment which eventually forced him to flee to the United States.

TRANSCRIPT

You may not be too familiar with our next guest, but Thomas Mapfumo is a musician of extraordinary fame in his homeland, Zimbabwe. But his defiant protest songs against Robert Mugabe landed him in jail and eventually he was forced to seek refuge in the US. Thomas is in Australia at the moment and George Negus spoke to him here in the studio a short while ago.

GEORGE NEGUS: Thomas, as we speak, your country, Zimbabwe, is on a precipice and the opposition are saying that they actually fear genocide in the current situation. What do you think will happen? What is your worst fear or best hope for Zimbabwe?

THOMAS MAPFUNO, ZIMBABWEAN MUSICIAN: Zimbabwe is actually going to be in a very, very bad situation. The way, I mean, that it is today. I think the world is listening and also the world is seeing.

GEORGE NEGUS: The world is listening, Thomas, but we don't seem to be doing much to help.

THOMAS MAPFUNO: That's very true and we - actually we were surprised, I mean, the whole world is so silent to what is happening in Zimbabwe today.

GEORGE NEGUS: You have actually written, "We must rise up and fight back." Is that a call to arms by the people of Zimbabwe? I mean, you don't live there, you are in self-exile yourself, but if you were there, living there, would you rise up against him? You think armed force is the only way to get rid of Mugabe?

THOMAS MAPFUNO: You know, people are trying to avoid, I mean, getting back to war. They're trying to work out this situation and our people are tired. And when people get tired they will say, "Enough is enough. If you want to kill us all, you can kill us all."

GEORGE NEGUS: Do you think it is that's

THOMAS MAPFUNO: That is where Zimbabwe, I mean, is headed for now.

GEORGE NEGUS: Civil war?

THOMAS MAPFUNO: Yeah, confrontation with the people.

GEORGE NEGUS: That's if the situation doesn't work out.

THOMAS MAPFUNO: Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes. Because a lot of people are very angry. A lot of people are leaving outside Zimbabwe

GEORGE NEGUS: Like yourself?

THOMAS MAPFUNO: Yeah, like myself.

GEORGE NEGUS: Thomas, if you went back to Zimbabwe now yourself, what would happen? Because you have been harassed and been dealt with by thugs before - you are so unpopular among the Mugabe people - what would happen if you went back?

THOMAS MAPFUNO: It is unpredictable, you won't know what would happen. I have very good friends who are in the army and also friends within the police force. When I say friends, people who love my music and who actually love the messages within my music. When I - if I went back to Zimbabwe, I am not afraid of the police or the soldiers. I am afraid of those elements which are being used by the regime today. People who have nothing, I mean, who don't care whether they are paid $50 to kill someone, they could just do it for .

GEORGE NEGUS: That ruthless?

THOMAS MAPFUNO: Yeah, yes.

GEORGE NEGUS: And that desperate?

THOMAS MAPFUNO: They are desperate.

GEORGE NEGUS: Any chance - any chance in the foreseeable future of your country becoming normalised, people living normal lives?

THOMAS MAPFUNO: I mean it depends with the leaders of Africa. When they look at this situation and they assess the situation in Zimbabwe, they themselves, I mean, as the leaders of Africa, what are they doing about the situation in Zimbabwe?

GEORGE NEGUS: Why are they so inactive, Thomas? Why are they so inactive? Why aren't they applying more pressure on Mugabe?

THOMAS MAPFUNO: You understand what I think he's the some of them are very much afraid of Mugabe. They think if they go against him he is going to say to them, "You are puppets of the West." So we cannot just, I mean, stand by, I mean, look at this situation, someone is killing his own people, he is abusing his own people, he is actually, I mean, oppressing his own people. And we just look at it like, I mean, "The situation in that country is good." It is a shame on Thabo Mbeki to say there is no crisis in Zimbabwe. I mean, he must be shameful.


GEORGE NEGUS: Well, if that is not a crisis, what is?

THOMAS MAPFUNO: What sort of crisis is he talking about? There is a crisis in Zimbabwe.

GEORGE NEGUS: In two weeks' time, if we were talking about this, do you think it would be over or will it get worse before it gets better?

THOMAS MAPFUNO: Well, I mean, the way it is now, it is getting worse. Because we are hearing, I mean, a lot of bad news, some people being harassed, some people being tortured, some people being accused of rigging the election. When he used to win, we never heard of such things. Just because he lost in these elections and he thinks he should be there for ever and ever, he is being pressurised by those corrupt ones who are surrounding him, because they know if he goes... They go. They are going to be in a lot of trouble. The next government will come after them.

GEORGE NEGUS: Is it possible to say that the way things are looking at the moment, if the situation - the stalemate is not broken soon, that Zimbabwe could be lost? It could just become a non-country, like we would all have to start over again?

THOMAS MAPFUNO: Right, now we are - Zimbabwe is a lost country. There is no money in Zimbabwe, everything stands still. The economy of the country is in shambles, the inflation is the highest in this world. So right now Zimbabwe does not exist.

GEORGE NEGUS: Thomas, thanks for talking to us.

THOMAS MAPFUNO: Thank you.

GEORGE NEGUS: I hope that the next time we talk things are a lot better in your

THOMAS MAPFUNO: Thank you very much.

Credits

Interview Producer/Researcher
JANE WORTHINGTON

Editor
JASON DIEPEVEEN