PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN, MIDDLE EAST REVIEW EDITOR: Well, it's really interesting how you put forward your premises to slant the entire story already, I find.

First of all, I don't take it as an assumption the Palestinians are living up to the cease-fire. Attacks are down by about 50% to 60% a day. They're still being carried out. Leaders of terrorist groups say they haven't been told to stop by Yasser Arafat.

People, in fact, are not being arrested. Terrorists who are wanted have - are still in Arafat's compound. He hasn't moved them to Jericho at all. So while the attacks have decreased, in fact they're continuing.

Classes are being held by Hamas to teach people in the firing of missiles. Missiles are being improved. None of this is being mentioned by you. You don't talk about...

MARK DAVIS: You haven't given me much of an opportunity to mention much, sir. It's just an opening question.

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: Well, I heard what you said and I know what the program is about and, in fact, there are Palestinian commitments under the performance-based road map which includes such things as dismantlement of the terrorist organisations and the stopping of incitement on Palestinian television which, in fact, continues.

The fence is not mentioned in the road map plan. The release of prisoners is not mentioned in the road map plan. So let's begin by laying out what the issues in fact are.

MARK DAVIS: Tariq Ali, how do you see the current scoreboard?

TARIQ ALI, AUTHOR/COMMENTATOR: Well, I see the current scoreboard completely differently. Of course Mr Rubin is right, that the release of prisoners and the fence wasn't mentioned in the road map and that's one of the problems with it, apart from many other problems.

I think the road map essentially is not taken seriously by a large bulk of the population in either Israel or the occupied territories.

They see it as a manoeuvre to maintain the occupation of Palestine and even if this road map was fulfilled with the Palestinians falling prostrate on their knees, it wouldn't get too far, in my opinion, because all it agrees on is the ultimate establishment of a Palestinian Bantustan with no real sovereignty of its own with Israeli control, so it would be even more of a protectorate, Israeli/American protectorate than Jordan is today.

MARK DAVIS: Well, whether the cease-fire is a success, or not, would you concede that radical Palestinian groups are going to be probably much harder to contain than any Israeli settlers may be?

TARIQ ALI: Well, I think that the key point that you have to understand about the situation is that it's a pretty classical-type colonial situation with the lands occupied by an Israeli army, territories infiltrated by settlers, people who have a completely colonial way of viewing the Palestinians, and it's very miserable.

I mean, every single day I get mail from Israelis, I have to say, of Jewish Israelis who are monitoring the situation from the Israeli Peace Movement and it's pretty horrendous, just the daily oppression which the Palestinians are suffering and to make this even worse by imposing an official Bantustan on them isn't going to make things any better.

The situation really needs very drastic solutions and this is not one of them.

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: It's a very peculiar reading of the situation. In fact, of course it said an independent Palestinian state.

Now, Mr Ali may not approve of that unless it's a Marxist/Leninist state, but nevertheless an independent state.

TARIQ ALI: No, I don't, don't talk nonsense.

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: This is the opposite of what you call a typical colonial situation. Let me simply state this - Israelis want to end the occupation.

Palestinians can, if they wish to do so, they have not wished to do so, or at least the people who are in control do not wish to do so, but the fact is Israelis want to end - Israelis want to end the situation and they want peace.

MARK DAVIS: Barry Rubin, can I ask you do you have any sense of optimism for this current plan?

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: I think what's important is the direction and the ability to move toward a resolution. The first step in that was getting a cease-fire, which has been partly achieved and then you have to move into negotiations.

Now whether this plan gets you so far and you continue and so on, but if there is a readiness to negotiate this seriously, and I think on the Prime Minister Abu Mazen's part and part of other Palestinian leaders, there is, then I think we can move steadily in this direction and will have an independent Palestinian state which may not please your other guest, but I certainly hope it will please the vast majority of Palestinians.

MARK DAVIS: Well, if you would concede that the cease-fire has been at least partially successful. How do you read the commitment to dismantling Israeli settlements and outposts, which is a key part of this plan?

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: Yes, there is a commitment to dismantle the outposts that have been created. I'd certainly like to see that commitment fully kept.

As far as the settlements go, the proposals offered in the year 2000 provided for the dismantlement of the great majority of them and I have no doubt that any peace negotiation, any negotiated agreement will lead to the dismantlement of whatever, 95% plus of them and I think that the Israelis will definitely accept that, if they believe that they're going to get a real peace and an end to violence in exchange.

MARK DAVIS: Tariq Ali?

TARIQ ALI: Well, I don't accept any of this. I mean this is sort of Israeli propaganda.

Let's listen to what Ariel Sharon himself said and I would like to quote to you directly the so-called 'independent Palestinian state' according to Sharon, and I quote,

"The Palestinian state will be completely demilitarised. It will be allowed to maintain lightly armed police and internal forces to ensure civil order. Israel will continue to control all movement in and out of the Palestinian state, will command its airspace and not allow it to form alliances with Israel's enemies."

This sort of independence is going to lead to more trouble and it will all end badly. I'm prepared to predict this in 5, 10 years time the situation is going to continue unless the Israeli regime accepts that the creation of the Israeli state deprived the Palestinians of their homeland.

These Palestinians have accepted the existence of the Israeli state, which is a very big concession. Now the Israelis should accept a withdrawal to the '67 borders and the creation of a truly sovereign independent Palestinian state regardless of whether they like or dislike its leadership and they've got to do this.

And look, given that the United States controls most of the Middle East...

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: In exchange for what?

TARIQ ALI: Hang on, given that the United States controls most of the Middle East...

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: It controls most of the Middle East, really?

TARIQ ALI: It will control the Palestinian state so you have to trust your American paymasters to control that and not do it yourself.

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: Paymasters, listen there's no doubt that you have...

TARIQ ALI: They are your paymasters. They subsidise you, they arm you they keep you going. Where would you be without them?

MARK DAVIS: Gentlemen, to both of you, I would like to move on to your...

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: Thank you for your Marxist/Leninist perspective...

MARK DAVIS:..to the role of the United States which is an issue which both of you have written quite extensively. Tariq Ali, you've been, of course, damning of the role of America in recent events. But would you concede that this is one of the periods that the US has been the most even-handed between Israel and Palestine?

TARIQ ALI: I don't agree. Of course I don't. I think the most even-handed regime the Americans have had on Israel and Palestine was that of Bush Senior and George Baker.

It certainly isn't this regime and it certainly wasn't Clinton and in understanding what the United States is doing in the Middle East, it's not that it's, you know, it's interested in that region per se, I think it is the energy sources, resources of that region which keep the United States there. and leads to billions being spent to sustain all sorts of regimes, not just the Israelis - the Saudis, the Egyptians, now Iraq. The United States more or less controls this region.

MARK DAVIS: Barry Rubin, your response generally but also your perception of the United States at the moment?

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: Mr Ali has been an anti-American since the 1960s and I can't believe the United States could possibly do anything that would find favour in his eyes.

But I can only ask this question of your viewers - contemplate this. The United States is in control of the Middle East, there's no area in the world where the US has had less influence.

We've had the Iranian revolution, we've had Libya, we've had terrorism, we've had the Saddam Hussein regime up until April. The United States doesn't control this region, it doesn't control the regimes. There's not a single regime in the Middle East which owes its existence to the United States, whatever help it might receive.

The problem in the region is the existence of incompetent dictatorships which use repression and use anti-Americanism as the Soviet Union once did and as Nazi Germany once did, to distract attention from their own failings and to have someone else to blame for them. I think that's very important to understand.

MARK DAVIS: Tariq Ali, if you were to have America's best interests at heart, where would they lie at the moment in this current Israeli/Palestinian dispute?

TARIQ ALI: Well, the United States defends its own interests, whatever the period. This is what you have to understand.

I mean, the central thing that determines US policy is defence of immediate, medium-term and long-term US strategic interest and the new doctrine enunciated by President Bush makes that very clear and its immediate, medium-term interest in the Middle East, rests, in my opinion, with making sure that there's a strong relay which does its bidding and controls that region if necessary, which is the use they've made of Israel ever since 1967.

Prior to that they were not sure. After that, they have used Israel quite decisively and Israel has permitted itself to be used. So unless and until the Palestinian issue is resolved...

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: No Israelis are aware of this, I must say.

TARIQ ALI: Oh, I think they are. I think most of them are. You aren't, I think you aren't but I think quite a lot of Israelis are perfectly well aware of this. Anyway, I didn't interrupt you when you were speaking. So do me the courtesy of listening.

So I think essentially until it's accepted by the United States and the West, that the Palestinians have been wronged, a terrible wrong was done to them for no reason of their own...until there is a long-term solution to the Palestinian question, until the occupation of Iraq ends you will continue to have trouble there until as long as you have unrepresentative regimes in a number of these Middle Eastern states - in Saudi Arabia in particular and also in Egypt - we will continue to have these problems.

MARK DAVIS: Gentlemen, we're about to lose the satellite but a very quick rebuttal from you, Professor.

PROFESSOR BARRY RUBIN: I think we are quite aware of the Palestinian's problems and sufferings and we are quite aware that the sufferings of both sides need to be alleviated in tandem. This can only be done by a compromise agreement. I'm sorry they've rejected the compromise agreement in 2000 with the additional bloodshed, but I hope and feel confident they will in the future and we will have peace. Thank you.

MARK DAVIS: Alright, gentlemen, thanks to both of you for joining us.