ROBERT GELBARD, FORMER US AMBASSADOR TO INDONESIA: The problem, the tragedy here, is that the involvement of al-Qa'ida in Indonesia is not new. I knew when I arrived as ambassador three years ago, that al-Qa'ida had begun to implant itself in Indonesia by establishing a number of fronts. This is the same MO that they had used in other countries that had had either totalitarian or authoritarian governments that had suddenly collapsed, such as Albania or Bosnia. And they began to establish these fronts and tried to work with groups which were ripe, or they thought could be ripe, to act as their partners.

JANA WENDT: So, you had, by the sounds of it, well-developed intelligence on the movement of al-Qa'ida. Was that intelligence at that time passed on to the Australians?

ROBERT GELBARD: Well, of course, I don't want to talk about specifics of intelligence, but we do a great deal of sharing in intelligence and there's little question in my mind that Australia knew about this. What I did try to do was discuss it with the newly elected democratic government in Indonesia of President Abdurrahman Wahid. I did offer a lot of this information to senior members of President Wahid's government and I offered briefings about this information. Not surprisingly, sadly, unfortunately, there was no interest at any level about this.

JANA WENDT: Do you believe that there was no interest because what you were telling the government of the day was simply not believed or because there was a fear of some political fallout over this?

ROBERT GELBARD: Well, I think a lot of it had to do with the circumstances at the time. Remember, this was right after the referendum in East Timor and the violence that ensued. There was a strong backlash against both the United States and Australia, as well, of course, as the United Nations and - for example, the then minister of defence in President Wahid's government, Juwono Sudarsono, a man who was considered by many to be a great supporter of democracy and of the West, lashed out at the UN, Australia and the United States, alleging that we all conspired on the referendum in East Timor. Therefore, there was no interest and a complete rejection of any kind of information we were offering, which indicated to them that they might be at risk.

JANA WENDT: Well, let's move forward to today and the situation that exists now in Jakarta following those terrible events in Bali. How optimistic are you that this investigation will do what it should do, that is, find the perpetrators?

ROBERT GELBARD: It's hard to say this at this point. The good news, I think, is that the police general who has been put in charge of the investigation, a Balinese named Made Pastika, is really one of the very best in the Indonesian police. He's a man whom I know personally, a man with whom we have worked over the years, and he is - if there's going to be anybody who is capable of handling the tough investigation, he is the one. That being said, I remain sceptical until proven otherwise that the Indonesians will really pursue this investigation to its final end. They will have to be encouraged. They will have to be pressured discreetly but, international pressure and international encouragement is really what is needed at this time to keep them on track to make sure that there really is a serious investigation, and that the perpetrators will be brought to justice and that the groups that are involved will be dismantled.

JANA WENDT: Mr Gelbard, we know that at the very highest level, that is in the office of the Vice-President, we have a man who has shown himself to be a supporter of groups like JI and Abu Bakar Bashir. Do you think that he will be influential in how this investigation is handled?

ROBERT GELBARD: It's more likely than not that he'll be somewhat to the side as this investigation proceeds. I've noticed that he has been changing his rhetoric over the last couple of days and has become more supportive of the need to bring those who committed this terrible act to justice. He has said publicly that there is no room in Indonesia for extremist groups. So we're seeing something of a U-turn on his part. Similar statements have been made by the largest - the two largest Islamic organisations, Nahdlatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah. But, the government is going to have to show serious political will to maintain this serious track for the foreseeable future.

JANA WENDT: Nonetheless, we still do hear echoed throughout at least some sections of Indonesia the view, for instance, that the US was responsible for the Bali bombing. Now, how widespread do you think that view is?

ROBERT GELBARD: Well, there is a sad predilection on the part of many Indonesians to try to avoid looking in the mirror and seeing what the truth really is. I noticed, for example, in the 'Jakarta Post' today a distinguished Indonesian professor Arief Budiman, who teaches at the University of Melbourne, was quoted as saying - and I can only hope he was misquoted - that the United States and its allies, including Australia, were overreacting to the events in Bali and he said these were just little bombs. One of the problems that has impeded Indonesia's ability to develop as a fully democratic society and to develop its economy in a serious way, as well as to develop the rule of law in the way it should be, is the unwillingness or perhaps even inability to really look at problems, assess them correctly and deal with them.

JANA WENDT: You are saying that this requires some steel and some resolve on the part of the Indonesian Government and yet we often hear President Megawati described as a weak leader. What hope is there that this government will be in this for the long haul?

ROBERT GELBARD: Too many of the so-called experts on Indonesia, including academics in Australia and the United States and others, always say we should be very gentle with the Indonesians and not pressure them. I think a lot of the result of that has been that, too often, the Indonesians have felt a sense of what I call 'unconditional entitlement', that they can take action or not take action and get away with them. As they actually did in East Timor, for example, where they ultimately were not held tremendously accountable even when trials resulted in people being let off. Whether it involves the consultative group on Indonesia, whether it involves other kinds of measures that Indonesia really needs in order to progress, our governments, our populations have it in themselves to quietly, discreetly talk to those who really affect policy in Indonesia and keep Indonesia on the right course.

JANA WENDT: Robert Gelbard, we must leave it there. I very much appreciate your time.