SABAM SIAGIAN, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO AUSTRALIA: Well, it's neither a hiccup nor a calamity but I think this case shows that there must be increased awareness on the Australian side that the current democratic Indonesia is full of - what shall I say? - sense of participation in the political process and alertness about the bilateral relationship.

GEORGE NEGUS: Your newspaper reported today in fact, that Indonesia has no plans to sever diplomatic ties with Australia because it granted refugee status to this group of West Papuans but, that said, this is not over yet, by a long way. What if more people were to appear on the northern Australian coastline and to be granted visas in the same way?

SABAM SIAGIAN: I would say, given the shifting geopolitical context in the Asia-Pacific, whatever agency and whoever is making the decisions in Australia, they should be aware about the current sensitivities in a large neighbour as Indonesia. And, if I may continue, George, it does not mean that, if a case like this comes up, principles of human rights are not being considered. It does mean, however, that continuous communication should be maintained.
For instance, in this case, after the arrival last January, you know, not suddenly a decision, like now, if they say or they have said or they have claimed, the 43 refugees, that they have fled Papua because there is "genocide" in Papua, and that's a strong word, George, then the Australians, you know, to be fair, would say, we're going to send somebody - either a senior judge or whatever - to look into the matter, whether there is indeed cases of genocide in Papua, and then publish it, you know?
What I am advocating is, George, a more phased process of coping with requests for asylum and not, sort of, a unilateral decision as perceived by Indonesians.

GEORGE NEGUS: Would you agree with an MP from Jakarta who is, in fact, a member of the powerful foreign affairs commission, Djoko Susilo, when he says that he believes that giving asylum to these people means that Australia has confirmed what they are claiming, which are in fact acts of genocide, persecution, imprisonment of physical abuse of torture and even possible execution they say.

SABAM SIAGIAN: You do create that kind of perception, you know. That's the trouble with this case. By making that kind of unilateral decision all the built-up reserve of goodwill between the two countries, especially since President SBY is in office, evaporates - that's my concern from a person that cares very much for the friendship between our two countries, George.

GEORGE NEGUS: We've spoken to these people, one of our reporters, and they are basically saying that if they go back to Jakarta, or West Papua, they fear imprisonment, they fear possible execution.

SABAM SIAGIAN: Yeah, but you know very well, our President has stated very clearly, if I'm not mistaken, to Prime Minister Howard himself in a phone conversation, that he guarantees that will not happen.

GEORGE NEGUS: He might make that guarantee but what about the Indonesian police and security in West Papua? What about them?

SABAM SIAGIAN: If you do not trust our President's words what's the use of maintaining this bilateral relationship, George?

GEORGE NEGUS: Promises have been made before, the West Papuans would claim, and people have lost their lives.

SABAM SIAGIAN: Not since President SBY has stated, so don't refer to previous cases. I mean, he has gone to Australia, he is well accepted. Do you trust him or not? That's the point.

GEORGE NEGUS: I think most people would agree that President SBY is honourable in his intentions but what control does he have over the Indonesian military when it comes to a place like West Papua?

SABAM SIAGIAN: You leave that to us, George. Are you questioning... Do you want us a neighbour or don't you want it?

GEORGE NEGUS: What do you think would happen if 50 more people were to arrive in Australia tomorrow and the Government gave them visas, and then another 50 and then another 50?

SABAM SIAGIAN: Apparently you didn't listen to me before. If anyone comes up then the whole approach should be different. The approach should be, here we are dealing with a good friend, our large neighbour, and the future of Australia also depends on the future of a democratic and stable Indonesia. Now, how do we handle this?

GEORGE NEGUS: How else should they handle it, because Alexander Downer does say that this is a case-by-case thing?

SABAM SIAGIAN: Foreign Minister Downer says it's not up to him, it's up to the Minister for Immigration and an independent agency out of that so the whole process should be carried by taking seriously the geopolitical context of our relationship.
The whole map is shifting now, George, so if these things come up it cannot only view that case per se. It does not mean that we expect Australia to give up its principles of human rights - no.
But the way you handle it, by maintaining continuous dialogue with your largest neighbour friend, that's what we want and not suddenly a unilateral decision announced.

GEORGE NEGUS: Could I ask you a broader question - some people say that what we are looking at here is another East Timor, that Indonesia seems to have learned nothing from that experience and the situation could deteriorate along the same lines?

SABAM SIAGIAN: Yes, George, you are wasting your words, you know. I mean, given this short interview I stay away from comparing it with East Timor because there is much more to it.

GEORGE NEGUS: Why is it different where East Timor was concerned? Why is it wrong to compare the two?

SABAM SIAGIAN: In the case of Papua, it's part of Indonesia, we care for it, our Vice-President pays attention to it, I have visited it many times, I am a member of Forum Papua, an NGO comprising of intellectuals, lawyers and so forth, so we are in constant touch with the leadership of the Papua People's Council, so I mean, by from the outset always linking it with the possibility of "East Timor" you create an atmosphere that's not conducive and not constructive George.

GEORGE NEGUS: Spoken like the diplomat that you once were. It's good talking to you again.

SABAM SIAGIAN: OK, George, take care.