SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: I've got to say you've got to understand what this man's job is. Mr Tracey's job is, if he can, to put Australia's farmers out of business, to give his farmers business. And the biggest kickback in the grains industry - and he would know this and his growers know this - is that $20 billion US farmers get at the farm gate every year and, as you know, the European farmers get something like $500 billion - that's two-thirds of all farm income in Europe - are kickbacks from the government.

GEORGE NEGUS: Clearly, the subsidies are part of the issue but what about his claim that the kickbacks that our blokes were giving over there, actually could have contributed to the situation in Iraq?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: Well, I'm not going to speculate on the outcome of the Cole Inquiry. The Cole inquiry is a seriously fair dinkum process and unlike every other politician in this place, I've been there for many days and I went there originally to make sure it was fair dinkum, and it is fair dinkum. And anyone that has done the wrong thing shall pay the price.

GEORGE NEGUS: Has he got a point, though?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: I've got no idea what the kickback money was used for. The fact that there were kickbacks - alleged kickbacks - is a serious mistake by AWB Ltd.

GEORGE NEGUS: This is something else he said. He said that the documents and admissions in the testimony have been nothing short of outstanding. They have in fact revealed a web of deceit that is far more devious than we have imagined. Is he just being a lobbyist or, again, does he have a point that there are Australians operating in an unbelievably devious fashion, and why? Why were they?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: Again I have to say the reason global grain trading is corrupt his because it's a corrupt marketplace. It occurs at all levels, whether you're selling grain into China, or wherever, it is not a nice place to be. And the US wheat lobby are determined to get our market share. Why has it corrupt? It's corrupt because once you take the first step down that path, they've got you full for good. And the first payment that was made to Iraq, the AWB Ltd, if that's what the inquiry eventually finds, would have discovered to their horror that they could not take a backward step because Iraq would have simply said do another deal or we'll put you win.

GEORGE NEGUS: So they were caught up in this international corruption web that you were talking about where wheat is concerned?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: There is no question that I am disappointed. These buggers have been coming to my office for 2.5 years telling me lies.

GEORGE NEGUS: When these buggers, as you put it, came through your door, did you go to Alexander Downer? Did you go to Mark Vaile? Did you go to the PM?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: When they came through my door, I kept saying to them we hear that you blokes are on the take, as it were, or giving kickbacks, and they just kept saying to us, well, that stick them damn Yanks trying to take our market share.

GEORGE NEGUS: Did you go to the PM? We know you're close to the Prime Minister. Did you say to him and say, this is a racket? This is something that's going on that's going to be detrimental to the country?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: I didn't say it was a racket because I didn't know what was going on. I honestly and earnestly - and I get myself into a lot of trouble seeking the truth at times - but I didn't know what was going on. Honestly, if I had have known what was going on, I would have kicked someone's head in.

GEORGE NEGUS: Have you talked to the PM about this?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: Not in detail, I have told the PM in my view that we cannot let this degenerate into an issue where the Cole Inquiry becomes a side issue and the politics that are being played become the main issue. The Cole Inquiry, as everyone knows, has to do its job and we shouldn't be playing politics. But the other thing that shouldn't happen is this shouldn't become a decision-making process of what we do with a single desk.

GEORGE NEGUS: I would like to talk about the single desk in a moment but before we get to that, because it is very important, as you say - but when push comes to shove, where does the buck stop? With the Prime Minister? With Mark Vaile? With Alexander Downer? Who will ultimately is going to take the political responsibility for this?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: The buck stops with the decision by the Cole Inquiry as to who, if any one, has done anything wrong and whether that was criminal, and that would proceed to a court. And I have to say, if it did proceed to a court and there is an outcome, Junee has got a very lovely institution down there.

GEORGE NEGUS: What about criminal negligence, if ministers are found to have been negligent in this?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: Can I just saying, George, I think that is unhelpful speculation. And I think you should leave this to the inquiry and unlike everyone else in this place, I've been at inquiry a lot of days. I have discussed... I have had discussions with the key players at the inquiry and I am satisfied that there will not be a stone left unturned to arrive at the truth.

GEORGE NEGUS: Let's talk about the single desk, because that's at the core of all this. It would seem that the Treasurer wants to get rid of it, the Nationals want to keep it. What does Bill Heffernan think they should do about the single desk? Has the Government already done a deal with the Americans to get them off their back by saying the single desk goes?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: Can I give you and our viewers a categorical assurance that my position, which is certainly the Government's position, is that we are not going to be bluffed into a dropping the single desk off a cliff somewhere because of this. Unless the US Government and the European Union take out of the marketplace the greatest corrupters of the market place - which we have to compete against - that is the the farm subsidy program - we will not be doing away with the single desk in the way that they would like. The more they squeal, the more we should say to ourselves we must be doing some good here.

GEORGE NEGUS: What you think the biggest stoush will be - between Australian wheat growers and American wheat grower or between the Liberal Party and the National Party over the single desk?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: I don't think there'll be a stoush at all, because they actually isn't a difference.

GEORGE NEGUS: You're a tough-talking sort of guy. We all know that. Are you tempted to tell the Americans to blow it out their orifice, the way you told Senator Fiona Nash – who used to misquote you?

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: I have to say that I am tempted to tell the Americans, that it time they stopped providing their kickback at the farmer's gate over in America.

GEORGE NEGUS: Senator, thanks very much for your time.

SENATOR BILL HEFFERNAN: Thanks very much, George.