WIMAR WITOELAR, INDONESIA SPECIALIST: Well, it means internal politics is again the mode in Jakarta and the two powerful politicians probably want to embarrass President Megawati, also.

JANA WENDT: So you believe that these are domestic political concerns that are governing this?

WIMAR WITOELAR: Yes, well, of course, John Howard is not popular amongst some politicians in the parliament, but at the overriding issue for Indonesian politicians right now are domestic national politics rather than international.

JANA WENDT: But it would suggest that there is still a domestic constituency for this kind of anti-Australian sentiment, wouldn`t it?

WIMAR WITOELAR: The way the Indonesian Parliament works is they try every sentiment that might get them some air-time.

JANA WENDT: Well, you mentioned Megawati there. Where does she stand in this attitude to the Australian PM?

WIMAR WITOELAR: We never know since she doesn`t say much, so it depends on what advice she gets at the very end. We have a Foreign Minister, Hassan Wirayudha, who`s a very able man, but without any political base, so it`s anybody`s guess as to where she will go - she`ll probably say nothing.

JANA WENDT: She`ll probably say nothing (laughs). What attitude - do you believe she has an attitude with which she walks into any meeting with John Howard now?

WIMAR WITOELAR: No, if you understand President Megawati, she rules, actually, with a very strong level of confidence in staff and her appearances generally do not generate new directions. We`d have to look closer than Megawati`s words to understand the meaning of this meeting.

JANA WENDT: Well, you tell me what your best bet is about the kind of advice that`s being given to Megawati.

WIMAR WITOELAR: I think it would be to hold firm and not say much because she is under pressure of some very severe domestic issues - with the floods in Jakarta, the shootings in Aceh - and she will be advised not to tilt the card in any direction, and just play it as a photo opportunity.

JANA WENDT: But what would be the kinds of issues, do you believe, that these two leaders would, could constructively discuss?

WIMAR WITOELAR: Well, Hassan Wirayudha, the Foreign Minister, has already said that as far as the illegal immigrant issue is concerned, that will be discussed multilaterally in Bali on 27 February. Other than that, I think relationships, relations between Australia and Indonesia, should go on at a lower level of business to business, people to business. At the tops of the government, we have Howard, who I guess is a busy man as far as Asian affairs are concerned, and Megawati, who is not somebody who`s very pro-active in foreign affairs. So, it could be a very good meeting, protocol, get-together, give you feelings of affirmation that we are indeed neighbouring countries.

JANA WENDT: Is the relationship between Megawati and John Howard substantial enough to say anything about it? Is there a relationship?

WIMAR WITOELAR: No, I don`t think so, except that Howard of course hurried over to Megawati`s side when she first came to the presidency. But that hasn`t been reciprocated in any significant way by Megawati. So, Howard has a lot of thinking to do, I guess, to figure her out.

JANA WENDT: You mentioned earlier the issue of the boat people, the refugees in Australia. As you`re well aware that is what you`d call a "hot-button" topic - is it that way in Indonesia?

WIMAR WITOELAR: Well, not really, but the public has managed to concentrate on the Indonesian side of the problem, which is that these illegal immigrants somehow get into the country and cause trouble within Indonesia, and also trouble with Australia. So, Indonesians are looking how to deal with the immigration, the police and the border security of Indonesia.

JANA WENDT: Wimar Witoelar, appreciate your time, must leave it there.