Insight travelled to Melbourne's City of Greater Dandenong to go inside a community where tensions are running high.

On September 26th, Liep Gony, a young Sudanese boy, was bashed and left for dead near Noble Park train station.

Liep died in hospital a day later and his death rattled a community already shaken by reports of gangs and rampant crime.

Tensions were further inflamed when just days after Liep’s death Kevin Andrews, the Australian Minister for Immigration and Citizenship, announced his reason for suspending the intake of African refugees was because of their failure to integrate.

Sudanese leaders are furious and say the comments have legitimised racism and sparked reprisal attacks.

But other residents in Greater Dandenong support the Minister, saying the African community is having difficulty adjusting to Australia, and the Government’s decision is not racist but a reasonable response.

In a special edition of Insight we brought together Sudanese leaders, police, local council and concerned residents to discuss the problems facing this troubled community.

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Transcript:

JENNY BROCKIE: The Greater Dandenong area, here in Victoria, has one of our largest groups of African refugees, particularly from Sudan. Insight will talk to them in a moment, as well as the police and community leaders. But first, here's Lisa Main.

LIEP’S STORY:

REPORTER: Lisa Main

This is Noble Park railway station, 30 kilometres south-east of Melbourne. Four weeks ago 19—year-old Liep Ghoni was here, hanging out in his local neighbourhood. He should have been at home by 9pm as he was under a legal curfew. But by 10:45 that evening he lay badly injured on the side of the road just near the station. John lives about 200 metres down the road. That night he was walking to his local shops when he came across Liep's battered body.

JOHN BELIEU, NOBLE PARK RESIDENT: When you find someone that you know in that coma or that situation that took you by surprise, that's what happened to me.

REPORTER: Was he breathing by the time you got to him? Could you tell he was still alive?

JOHN BELIEU: Yes, I should say he was still alive.

Liep died in hospital 24 hours later. His death rattled a community already shaken by reports of gangs and crime. Immediately newspapers and talkback radio came alive with comments about Sudanese refugees.

NEIL MITCHELL, MORNING RADIO SHOW: A very important story developing in Melbourne. Police told the breakfast program there's a problem with groups of Sudanese men out at Noble Park station. The police are saying there's an issue with Sudanese gangs in this area.

MAN, TALK BACK RADIO: Well, I mean, when I hear about these Sudanese, look, I'm 78 and years ago you never ran around with knives, fighting with knives and kicking people and bashing.

NEIL MITCHELL: Yeah, but in fairness it's not just Sudanese doing that.

MAN: Yeah, I know.

The personal story of Liep was lost in the discussion.

JOHN BELIEU: To me Liep was a very quiet person, he's very quiet himself, and I was just, I was taken by surprise when people were talking about Liep might be hanging around train station and something that can't come to my mind because he's such a very quiet person.

Even though Liep was known to the police, his family remembers him as a loving brother and nephew. His uncle recalls Liep from his early years in Sudan.

BANAK JOSHUA, LIEP’S UNCLE: He liked playing football, football in the Sudan, soccer in Australia. He used to like football and when he came to Australia, he shifted quickly from football. I don't know whether he was considering his height. He was a tall boy and he opted to go to basketball.

NYCHAUT DENG, BASKETBALL MANAGER: He was 18 years and very strong and proud of himself. He got a lot of energy and he's very tall. He knows how to do dunks. And last year we award him as the best player in the team.

REPORTER: And off the court he was also getting himself in a bit of trouble.

NYCHAUT DENG: I think it's not big deal.

Liep had many cousins, one of them, Judy, returned home from the movies that day to find out Liep had died.

JUDY (NYAKOUTH) TUT, LIEP’S COUSIN: I felt numb, I lived in doubt until the funeral that he's, he's really dead, and at the funeral that's when I know he's not coming back. But before then until the funeral, I was really living in doubt that this happened and the way it happened.

Three days after Liep’s death, two young Caucasian males were charged with his murder.

JUDY TUT: We don't expect any of us to die the way he did, being killed. In Australia you can die of disease, being hit by a car, car accident, accidents, but not deliberately being killed.

JENNY BROCKIE: Well, welcome, everybody. Thanks very much for joining Insight tonight. We can't talk about what happened to Liep because that's now before the courts and, as you heard in that story, two Caucasian males have been charged with his murder. Following Liep's death the Immigration Minister, Kevin Andrews, said some African refugees were having trouble settling in. He said the intake of refugees from countries like Sudan was being slowed and that he'd been advised there were problems in the community, including gangs and violence. Senior Constable Joey Herrech, you work here in this area in Dandenong. Is there a problem with African gangs and violence?

JOEY HERRECH, SENIOR CONSTABLE VICTORIA POLICE: Look, I think you've really got to qualify that by making the perception of what is a gang Um, the public perceive a gang as a group of youths getting together and, if you ask those youths, they're just youths getting together to socialise or perhaps engage in some fun activity. Now, I would say yes, it might be perceived as a gang. However, we've got to look a little bit closer at that and see why the youths are getting together. It may not necessarily be for that reason. For police ourselves, we generally sort of associate a gang with organised crime, definite support, definite structure of hierarchy. Perhaps they're getting together to actually derive money from crime.

JENNY BROCKIE: So you dispute that terminology, would you?

JOEY HERRECH: Absolutely I would. I would, yes. I would not deny there are groups of people getting together and some of them may engage in at-risk behaviour but certainly I wouldn't go so far as to say these are gangs and that we've got a Bronx-style mentality out there and that sort of thing.

JENNY BROCKIE: What about African Australians being involved in crime and violence? Is that a problem?

JOEY HERRECH: Well, look, there is a core group of these youths that are actually getting involved in crime, yes, but, as I said, these youths are the minority and very well the minority. Um, you know, to look at the whole entire Sudanese community to say they're all bad and they're all involved in gangs is just crazy.

JENNY BROCKIE: Assistant Commissioner Paul Evans, what do you think?

PAUL EVANS, ASSISTANT COMM. VICTORIA POLICE: There's a very small group of young men who live, in particular, around the Noble Park area, and I'm talking about a core group of about 20 young men aged between 14 to 23 and there would be another group, the fringe of that group again, about another 20, similar age group, who are part, part of that. Now, that's what we're talking about and they're the ones that have caused these issues around Noble Park.

JENNY BROCKIE: And what are they doing? What's the problem with that 20?

PAUL EVANS: Can I mention that particularly in the last 12 months there's been significantly can be pointed to this particular group and this fringe group of increased assaults, robberies and also increased assaults against police. The police have been subjected to a number of, assaults where there's been broken jaws, cuts, bruises, fighting, those sorts of things. So there's no doubt that this young group of men aren't shy at having a go at the police. So there seems to be a breakdown or a lack of understanding of respect for people in our community with this core group and also, you know, they will attack soft targets in the community too for the purposes of a robbery.

JENNY BROCKIE: Bol Gok, can I ask you, you arrived in Australia as refugee yourself in 2004. Are you worried about the behaviour of some young people in this community?

BOL DIU GOK, SUDANESE COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION OF AUSTRALIA: Well, I would definitely say yes. I'm just worried about, not only the behaviour, worried about their safety and their future for this country.

JENNY BROCKIE: And why do you think there is a problem with that small group? What do you think is at the heart of that?

BOL DIU GOK: I wouldn't say there is a problem anyway. Probably when you see a group of people walking together it doesn't mean it's a problem, but the problem has been exaggerated and has been generated by the media.

JENNY BROCKIE: But the Assistant Commissioner is saying it's a minority, it's a small minority but there is a problem. Do you accept that? Do you accept there is a problem?

BOL DIU GOK: I would definitely say no. I wouldn't say there Yes, there's no problem that I can see.

JENNY BROCKIE: Berhan, you wanted to say something. Is there a problem of adjustment with some people?

DR BERHAN AHMED, AFRICAN THINK TANK: It's a process of settlement. It's not a problem. This is the challenge for settlement. An African, this is not unique to Africans. There's nothing called this young group or that. This is a young, youth behaviour. Whether it's white or black or African or American, that's a common behaviour. The problem is the settlement process. We need to be addressing those issues in a way that helps this young people out of the streets.

JENNY BROCKIE: OK, we'll get on to the settlement process in a minute. I just want to try and get a picture of what's been happening here because clearly there's been some tension and I'm really interested to hear from you, Geoff, because you manage a bottle shop in Noble Park. Do you have trouble with gangs and, if so, what sort of gangs?

GEOFF HEFFERNAN, NOBLE PARK STORE MANAGER: The last three years mainly it started. Um, we've had huge problems with, gangs of Sudanese kids in our store. I think it's garbage to say that there's no problem, with young with a certain group of young Sudanese. There's definitely.. The gang in Noble Park from my observation is about 80% Sudanese, about 10% Kiwi Islanders and about, you know, just a mix of others after that. In my shop we have repeated attempts of shoplifting. For a while it was almost on a nightly basis. We've had to install an entire new security system just to cope with the demands of the amount of crime we were receiving. I've had multiple assaults on myself from gang members.

JENNY BROCKIE: What sort of assaults?

GEOFF HEFFERNAN: I've been, had both of these the two times I've been assaulted was actually by an Islander, so not a Sudanese person. But I had...I was attacked. Um, some guy...one of them tried to punch me in the head. Another time

JENNY BROCKIE: That incident received a lot of media attention, didn't it?

GEOFF HEFFERNAN: Yeah, that was the one. A lot of people might have seen on the news.

JENNY BROCKIE: And a lot of that media attention suggested that Sudanese gangs might have been the problem. Was that the problem?

GEOFF HEFFERNAN: The man who tried to attack me was not a Sudanese, they were all crowding around the store, blocking the entrance and trying to stand over me and threaten me.

JENNY BROCKIE: So you feel there is a problem with Again, is it a small number of large people? Is it a large number of people?

GEOFF HEFFERNAN: I agree more or less with the Police Commissioner's assessment that it's about, I'd say probably about 20 real troublemakers, and probably about somewhere between 50 to 100 of their loose associates, friends or whatever you want to call them, who hang out around the area. But I agree that it's only about somewhere between 20, 30 real troublemakers.

JENNY BROCKIE: And do you have any other troublemakers as well?

GEOFF HEFFERNAN: Of course, yeah.

JENNY BROCKIE: I was going to ask you that, Paul Evans. Who's committing the majority of the crime in the region, the street crime and those sorts of things?

PAUL EVANS: The Sudanese reported crime is underrepresented. However, specific in the Noble Park area, the crimes against...assault against the person and robbery are overrepresented with the Sudanese community. As was quite rightly said, there are other nationalities involved as well but having said that ..

JENNY BROCKIE: Caucasians as well?

PAUL EVANS: Yes, that is right but currently the issue and what stands out the most are the Sudanese young people.

JENNY BROCKIE: Geoff.

GEOFF HEFFERNAN: I'd just say in my store, in own personal experience, we have a lot of trouble there. I'd say around 50% of the incidents are Sudanese and there's nowhere 50% Sudanese in Noble Park.

JENNY BROCKIE: Barry Swanson, you live in Noble Park and you said you've been a victim of violence. What happened to you?

BARRY SWANSON: I was bashed and robbed and woke up in hospital. The police told me that the three young gentlemen who did it were Sudanese. They caught them and, I'm really not allowed to say any more because it's going to court.

JENNY BROCKIE: Carolyn, you run a business in Noble Park. You've run it for the last six years. What kind of things are you seeing?

CAROLYN FILLIPONI, NOBLE PARK BUSINESS OWNER: Because I'm near Noble Park station I see a lot of things happening in Noble Park and a lot of my clients are scared. They feel intimidated and they won't..

JENNY BROCKIE: Now why are they scared? Is it because of things that happen or is it just because of a general fear?

CAROLYN FILLIPONI: It's just around the station, a lot of people hang around the station and they don't feel safe to go under the tunnel to go into the street or anything. And a lot of Sudanese men hang around in the street as well and they just feel intimidated.

JENNY BROCKIE: Tut, how do young African Australian kids view the police? How do they see the police when they come here first? What's the view of the police?

TUT PAL DING, SUDANESE LOST BOYS ASSOCIATION: When they come here, it is true, they might have a different perception of the police but in the end they do get along with the police and that's why you can see even now in the community most of them are expressing their interest of joining the police because they believe police are good. But there are some police elements which might not make them happy whenever they are dealing with them.

JENNY BROCKIE: What do you mean by that?

TUT PAL DING: When I say element I mean you will find a policeman behaving not the way they're suppose to behave. So that will..

JENNY BROCKIE: In what way, Tut? Give me an example.

TUT PAL DING: For example, they would track down a Sudanese, for example, they would get them down and pull him over, try to search him, ask him for his identifications without reasonable suspicions that he might have committed a crime or know someone who might have committed a crime.

JENNY BROCKIE: Could I ask two of the local police here whether you think that happens. Do you think that happens? Senior Sergeant Ian Gillespie.

IAN GILLESPIE, SENIOR SERGEANT VICTORIA POLICE: I'd say no, that doesn't happen. Sometimes there's a misunderstanding of the reasons why they're being intercepted and the reasons why they're searched. I mean, there's a lot of intelligence gathered about, about the broader community. Of course we act on that intelligence.

JENNY BROCKIE: Yes.

DR BERHAN AHMED: Just to make a point, we've got in Flemington and North Melbourne area was such a problem before. There was, without doubt, there was some bad apples within the police. There was, the Africans were fearing being targeted and we tried to...it took us over three years to build trust. But there's no doubt, you know, it's not only one side, it takes two sides to work out where's the problem.

JENNY BROCKIE: Do you think that's true, Paul? Do you think there are problems on both sides here?

PAUL EVANS: Well, there can be and, look, we've spent many years building up relationships with the Sudanese and many communities and, remember, Greater Dandenong has 151 nationalities living in the community of Greater Dandenong. It's been a magnificent success of a melting pot with a whole lot of nationalities living and working and sort of doing things together. Greater Dandenong is a great example of how things can work in this State and in this country. What we're talking about tonight is a very small core of individuals.

JENNY BROCKIE: But it's a small core that's got a lot of attention and it's a small core that's led to a political comment that we're now all talking about here tonight.

DR BERHAN AHMED: One thing, as Africans, we are identified and young Africans in the middle of everywhere are identified and that makes them a specific target.

JENNY BROCKIE: They're visible, what you're saying is very visible.

DR BERHAN AHMED: They're very visible and that is making a sort of question into being identified and being seen of that target.

JENNY BROCKIE: Nyadal, you've been wanting to say something for a while.

NYADOL NYUON: I want to just say that, as he said, they're being identified but we identify with something that is wrong so that is just projected to us and then sometimes these kids feel like they have to oppose what is being shown or being portrayed about them. I would... I actually experienced one episode when we were coming from a basketball training with a group of young Sudanese kids from Springvale. They immediately.. The man were just pushed to one side by a couple of six policemen and they were asking us for tickets because we got down at the Noble Park train station. And personally I thought the way they handled the situation was quite a bit of harassment and it wasn't, you know.. They were pushing kids around, which was not acceptable.

JENNY BROCKIE: OK, but if that's happening, let's say for argument's sake, and I'm not saying it is, but let's say for argument's sake that is happening, at the same time, are there problems within the community that the community isn't yet addressing adequately. I guess that's the point I'm trying to get to. Do you think that's the case?

NYADOL NYUON: Yes, I believe, like any community, we will not have a proper situation of nothing happens, especially when it comes to teenagers. Teenagers always have problems so it's not only the Sudanese community. I do believe that there are issues that need to be addressed but we also have to judge these kids according to their backgrounds and what they have gone through, not just specifically, you know, them being in Australia and not adapting to the Australian way of life.

JENNY BROCKIE: Bol Diu Gok, you wanted to say something as well.

BOL DIU GOK: I just wanted to add something on the issue of the police, that if you see the police, if the police see an African person is driving a car and is stopping a person without reason or without making a mistake on the road and let on, release the person without asking for the reason why he stopped, so we think that is the kind of isolation that.. And the police never had actually a good understanding on how we...how to deal with the situation in the African issues.

JENNY BROCKIE: But that's not a justification for then going on and committing crimes, is it? No. No. Alright, we have general agreement on that. We're in Dandenong, in Victoria, which has a large population of Sudanese refugees. We're here because the Government is pointing to problems with race-based gangs and violence and says some groups are having trouble settling into the Australian way of life. I'd like to just look back at where some of the people here tonight have come from. Nyadol, your father was a rebel soldier who died in Sudan. You were born into a refugee camp in Ethiopia, is that right?

NYADOL NYUON: Yep.

JENNY BROCKIE: And then you moved to another refugee camp in Kenya before you came to Australia. What was it like for you in those refugee camps growing up?

NYADOL NYUON: Oh, I think when you grow up in a refugee camp that's almost all you know and it's hard to compare other things with. But it was quite a hard life, you know. Um, we had to survive on basic, you know, things that would provided for to us by the UNHRC.

JENNY BROCKIE: And what would happen in those camps? What sort of things happened?

NYADOL NYUON: Like, the education system, we had to study, like, half a day, even though we're, like, in a high school level and there were also, situations where you felt you're not being respected as a human being. I remember going for head counts in refugee camps where the UNHCR did a routine count of everybody in the camp and I used to remember how people would be beaten up by policeman and Kenyan police and stuff like that.

JENNY BROCKIE: People were actually beaten up in the camps?

NYADOL NYUON: People were actually beaten up in the lines in the camps waiting to be counted, waiting to get their ration, their food. We were in some sense run like animals.

JENNY BROCKIE: What were you fleeing? What you were running away from?

NYADOL NYUON: We were running away from the war in Sudan because there has been a civil war that's been running for two decades now.

JENNY BROCKIE: How old were you arrived here?

NYADOL NYUON: 18 years old. I arrived in March 2004.

JENNY BROCKIE: And what was it like when you arrived here, compared to what you knew?

NYADOL NYUON: Well, I think first of all you have this joy of knowing you can now try and achieving something and then there comes the reality of all these other issues that you just have to overcome and when I came to Australia I went to school after, I think, three months and I was very, very happy but there was a lot of facilities in to use in school. The biggest problem with that is you didn't know how to use them because you didn't have them back in the refugee camp and that kind of disadvantaged you in the classroom in some sense.

JENNY BROCKIE: Akoch, you're 25. You've been here since 2003 and you're one of a group internationally known as the Lost Boys. Can you tell us why you were called the Lost Boys?

AKOCH AKUEI MANHIEM, SUDANESE LOST BOYS ASSOCIATION: Ah, this was that long time ago in Sudan because the war broke out, the civil war between north and south Sudan and that war separate the families, friends, relatives.

JENNY BROCKIE: Separated families.

AKOCH AKUEI MANIEM: Yes, and most of the young peoples when they run away they go to the camps where we can get protection from different soldiers.

JENNY BROCKIE: And you were one of those children who ran away?

AKOCH AKUEI MANIEM: Yes, I was one.

JENNY BROCKIE: And how far did you have to travel and for how long?

AKOCH AKUEI MANIEM: You travelled many months, like 10 month, one year travelling around looking for the safety, protections.

JENNY BROCKIE: So you travelled in groups? Children travelled in groups?

AKOCH AKUEI MANIEM: Yeah, travel groups. Some peer groups remain behind and along the way we got a lot of difficulties. Some can be caught by the lions.

JENNY BROCKIE: By lions?

AKOCH AKUEI MANIEM: Thirsty, no water, no food. A lot of people were dehydrated and they die. And the few people who arrived to Kenya come from refugee camps were gathered by the UNHCR and call them Lost Boys because they were without family.

JENNY BROCKIE: Without family. What was it like for you when you arrived here?

AKOCH AKUEI MANIEM: Well, when I arrived to Australia I found that it is a beginning of new life because and I was very eager to learn in a new life. The first day when I arrived, there were many different things because in refugee camp where I was there was no big building like this, no light.

JENNY BROCKIE: No big buildings like this. Now there was also a story when you first started cooking. I'd like you to tell me this story. What happened when you'd never used a kitchen before, is that right?

AKOCH AKUEI MANIEM: Because we have a different way of cooking in our country and we collect firewood but when I came here someone took me inside the house and said this is where you can cook. And I said, "Where is the fire?" And they said, look, you can just switch on and you get heat. So when I...the person showed me around and how to cook and forget to show me alarm clock. So that smoke alarm make me feel scared after a while.

JENNY BROCKIE: So you burnt something when you were cooking and the smoke alarm went off?

AKOCH AKUEI MANIEM: When I cooked I burned the onions and then smoke alarm went off and I was like running around, wondering why my house was crying.

JENNY BROCKIE: Why your house was crying.

AKOCH AKUEI MANIEM: Yeah, yeah, that's right. So I have to run outside and my neighbours came to me and said, "Look, this is a smoke alarm." I said, "Look, this is interesting thing." One of my friends

JENNY BROCKIE: So a big adjustment, Akoch. The moral of this story is there's a big adjustment.

AKOCH AKUEI MANIEM: It's really the beginning of life when you come and I feel that is a very big turning point of life in Australia.

JENNY BROCKIE: Geoff, you wanted to say something.

GEOFF HEFFERNAN: I actually studied to be a teacher a couple of years ago and when I was on my teaching rounds a young Sudanese girl was placed for her first day in school in one of my classes and she was placed in Year 8, which I think was roughly around her age group, but she couldn't speak any English and I was trying to teach her science, and I just had no hope. It was impossible. She couldn't understand a word of English.

JENNY BROCKIE: So, Geoff, I'm interested then where that leaves you in terms of understanding this community and perhaps understanding some of the problems, not just to justify them. You know, we're not justifying bad things happening but where do you sit then with having been in your own terms a victim but also

GEOFF HEFFERNAN: This is a topic confused by the media so I'd like to get this out in the air. I actually really like Sudanese people in general. But I'm just saying there is definitely a group of Sudanese young people who have a problem abiding by the law.

JENNY BROCKIE: Carolyn, how do you feel when you hear those stories about what some of these young people been through?

CAROLYN FILLIPONI: That's the first I don't have much to do with the Sudanese personally.

JENNY BROCKIE: So is that the first time you've heard some of that stuff? What do you think when you hear it for the first time?

CAROLYN FILLIPONI: Um, it gives me a little bit of an insight of the Sudanese.

JENNY BROCKIE: A very appropriate word to use on this program. OK, Berhan, yes.

DR BERHAN AHMED: What I'd like to mention here is that refugees adjusting here as humans is one thing but people come in with a lot of traumatised sort of life and adjusting in this settlement. It needs a lot of cooperation and assistance that people tend to forget. When people land here in Australia, they are assume everyone has got a same level that he's coming at but people have got a lot of life being traumatised and specially when you see it from the young kids.

JENNY BROCKIE: Yes. yes, Joey.

JOEY HERRECH: That is a very pertinent point. You know, the trauma and torture that a lot of the Sudanese are coming with is at the hands of police and authorities, so as soon as they land here, regardless of who you are as a person, if you wear this uniform they can.. It can bring a lot of flooding images and experiences back to them. So that's one of the major issues we have as police is to actually break that stereotype and the stigma.

JENNY BROCKIE: Paul Bor, I just want to ask you, we've talked a quite a bit about police, but I'd like to talk about families and about discipline and perhaps some differences between the way families discipline children and young people in Sudan versus in Australia. Now, Paul, you came here from Sudan in 2003. How do families traditionally discipline young people where you come from?

PAUL BOR GALWECH, NEW SUDAN ASSOCIATION OF AUSTRALIA: Well, look, family in Sudan is very big because they're extended family members and when, for example, something goes wrong with a child, or between child and a parent, then definitely some other people come in and the thing might be resolved peacefully.

JENNY BROCKIE: And if it isn't resolved peacefully, what happens?

PAUL BOR GALWECH: Look, there are certain ways of resolving things. There are responsibilities, there are values which both the parents, the children respect. But when you come here, look, the system is different and the so-called freedom here, and this freedom is being abused also because when you say you are free and you can say anything so our children are abusing this because..

JENNY BROCKIE: So there's a gap between generation and between cultures.

PAUL BOR GALWECH: There's a gap between generations here.

JENNY BROCKIE: NyadolWHERE does it leave young Sudanese in Australia, this kind of gap between cultures and between values and between ways of disciplining young people as well?

NYADOL NYUON: Well, I think it's quite a hard job for young people to find an identity that actually balance the two communities because personally when, Sudanese culture but then I have to go out and deal with other people that actually not Sudanese and therefore I have to actually address them in a way that is Australian, which I really don't have an idea what that is in a real sense. But, yeah, I find it's quite hard for young people to actually, you know, find that balance and be able to portray themselves in a way that they've created, an identity they are comfortable with because you're being judged by two different societies.

JENNY BROCKIE: Judy, you fled Sudan with your mother and 10 of your siblings. Is that right? And you're now living locally. You're the second-oldest of the children. Has your role in the family, in that big family changed since you arrived here?

JUDY TUT: Yeah, it has.

JENNY BROCKIE: How has it changed?

JUDY TUT: Well, if we were to be back in Sudan I'd be just sitting, doing things for myself, and my uncles, my mum and my dad would look after the kids and their needs and everything, but here, here in Australia, everyone is busy doing their things. My uncles are busy running their own families so my role is to help my mum out with the kids and we have a problem with the elders, with the elders in the community, with our mothers especially. When they come to this country, it's really hard for them to pick up English. So you'll take the role of the mother, taking them to hospitals, to Centrelink, to school, going to school interviews as a parent, not as a sister or a brother, because your mum..

JENNY BROCKIE: So your role really substantially changes?

JUDY TUT: Yep.

DR BERHAN AHMED: To make one point here, when I was talking to some refugees, single mothers, they come here in purpose to give their kids a future. And that's where that problem is coming because the family wanting to make the best, the best of their ability in Australia for the best of the kids. And that gap is creating a problem because the young generation, when they go to school they're being given instructions, that I remember in a meeting a young Sudanese woman said the kids came from the school, they were told if you've got problem you can call the police. And then the kids, they want to go out a Friday afternoon and mum said no, they called the police and the mum was surprised.

JENNY BROCKIE: Why do you...? Why are children being taken away from their families, though, here?

DR BERHAN AHMED: Because of misunderstanding. There is no big problem. As I said, and this has been said time and time again, most refugees live in public housing, not because they are failed families, no, because of their financial situation they have to live that sort of area, and that area has sometimes got a 'ghetto' system where kids have got no choice but to associate to their surrounding, which is a problem. So for that reason the problem for the mothers is too much to cope with Australian way of life and understanding and the surroundings, especially the police too, they don't understand the African sort of understanding because they need a process of understanding for the mother.

JENNY BROCKIE: What do you mean by the African understanding, though? Because it seems like we're not quite.. We're not quite getting to the heart of this. What is the heart of this problem? Why are those children being taken away from their families?

DR BERHAN AHMED: The question that you put, the family value in Africa is mainly to disciplining kids for reasons that you have to keep them with the family.

JENNY BROCKIE: OK, but discipline how?

DR BERHAN AHMED: Right, well, you can smack them. Sometimes that is part of the process of keeping the kids not to.. But this was in Australia as well because Australian society changed in the last 20 or so years.

JENNY BROCKIE: People don't get taken away from their families for being smacked. So what is happening then?

DR BERHAN AHMED: Because the mind-set of the kids are changing with what is orientated at school.

JENNY BROCKIE: Judy.

JUDY TUT: We actually had a problem with a kid. One of my cousins called the police because she didn't want to move from Sydney to Melbourne and when she was taken by the police, they would listen to her story, not the parents' story. So the parents would not have a word to say to the police because they will not listen to the police and the DHS says that we'll believe the child whatever they says.

JENNY BROCKIE: OK, but is there a problem with violence in families? Paul Evans, do you see problems of violence within the community, between families? I think we had that mentioned as part of the list of things the Minister cited.

PAUL EVANS: No more than anyone else.

JENNY BROCKIE: No more than anyone else.

PAUL EVANS: And our stats doesn't show anything outstanding in the Sudanese community.

JENNY BROCKIE: OK, I'd like to broaden out a little here. Youhorn Chea, you’re the Mayor of Dandenong. You came here as a Cambodian refugee yourself 25 years ago. Does any of this sound familiar to you?

MAYOR YOUHORN CHEA, CITY OF GREATER DANDENONG: I think so. With the refugee people, we have the same problem 25 years ago. Everyone complain about the Vietnamese, the Cambodian community. We have the same problem. 25 years ago we have a lot of settlement services. When the first refugee come, arrived in Australia, they got a bilingual officer who teach the refugee people in the same language, explain the law, the way of living in Australia. That one is fantastic, but now we do not have anymore.

JENNY BROCKIE: Senior Constable Joey Herrech, you travelled to Sudan earlier this year as part of a tour that was organised, I think, by the local Sudanese community here. What did you see when you went there and how did it affect you?

JOEY HERRECH: Well the first thing that struck me, was the lack of infrastructure. No running water, no electricity, a lot of sick people there that quite simply could have been cured with modern medicine, and those sort of systems were not available there. Education system was not there. Um, you know, housing and just the fundamentals of life were just not available.

JENNY BROCKIE: Did it make a difference to you when you came back as a police officer? Do you think you're a different police officer in terms of dealing with people?

JOEY HERRECH: I'm a different person after coming back here and I think the Sudanese community here would agree with me if you walk a day in Sudan it changes your life.

JENNY BROCKIE: How does that make a difference, though, when you're dealing with that really tough element? Does it make a difference or is it just like dealing with any other tough element in any community?

JOEY HERRECH: Well, there's going to be an element there that it makes no difference on and, you know, that's the honest truth. There is an element of perhaps some of the younger African Sudanese males that are interacting with the police in a negative basis but for the majority of them. And I guess I've got to qualify that again by saying for every one person that we're talking about tonight, I could bring you 10 or 20 Sudanese people that are making it and are valued members of our community that, you know, they're striving to get an education and all that sort of stuff. So, you know, it's made a huge difference to how the police as a service deliver that to the Sudanese community.

JENNY BROCKIE: Senior Sergeant Ian Gillespie, you're a local police officer here too. You were on that trip too. Did it change your approach to this community?

IAN GILLESPIE: Yes, I believe, my life has changed somewhat from having..

JENNY BROCKIE: How?

IAN GILLESPIE: A lot more tolerant of the multicultural communities we have here.

JENNY BROCKIE: What were you like before?

IAN GILLESPIE: Look, I wouldn't say I was bad before at all. But no..

JENNY BROCKIE: I'm interested in you That's a very honest thing to say, how you think you're more tolerant.

IAN GILLESPIE: We're here to be honest and probably before..We have 152 different multicultural backgrounds within the City of Greater Dandenong. It's very hard to spend time with 152 different areas, that's for sure, but that's life. The Sudanese are new to our community, reasonably new to our community, and this was a chance for us to get in right at the grassroots level and the chance for us to make a difference and, as a result of going to Sudan, we've seen some stuff that most people won't see in their lifetime.

JENNY BROCKIE: So when you hear talk of problems with people settling in, do you relate to that? Do you think there's a point, do you think there's an argument for slowing things down until some of problems in the community are dealt with or do you think it's just like any other new group?

IAN GILLESPIE: That's a political argument I don't think I should get into.

JENNY BROCKIE: I had a funny feeling you were going to say that. Let's try and make it a little less political. What I'm trying to get is if you think the problems are so serious that it warrants slowing down the numbers of African refugees that we take, in favour of others, or whether you think that it's just part of what normally happens?

IAN GILLESPIE: No, I think this is part of the process. It's happened in the past with other communities and I think that with a little bit of time that we can get over this very well. We can assist the Sudanese community and I think we do that very well.

JENNY BROCKIE: Geoff.

GEOFF HEFFERNAN: Isn't it the Immigration Department's or refugee department's job to make sure these people do integrate well? I mean, what's the point of having a refugee policy if you're just going to go, "Oh, well, it's too hard, they don't fit in, let's just get rid of them," you know? Why wouldn't you.. Why wouldn't you look at systems of improving it, you know? I don't understand how that can be. Isn't that just an admission of their own incompetence rather than a justification for changing the policy?

JENNY BROCKIE: Well, Berhan, the Minister says that he's received information from community organisations across Australia, we're just in one part of Australia here, pointing to problems with race-based gangs, tension between some African families involving conflict and assault and increases in crime among African youth. Now, you organised a conference where you talked about some of these issues. Is the Minister reflecting what you've told him?

DR BERHAN AHMED: We never told him and I don't remember telling him at all because we produced a report which addressed with recommendations all these issue that are process of settlement. His Assistant Minister for Immigration launched the report and none whatsoever was mentioned in his allegations on African settlement.

JENNY BROCKIE: So where is he getting the reports from? He's saying he's getting this information from his department and in turn that's coming from community organisations. Where is it coming from?

DR BERHAN AHMED: Most of it is make up because there is none whatsoever. There might be arguments, as in any society, but there is nothing called that there's Africans are making because we produced a report to show that issue.

JENNY BROCKIE: A couple of comments. One up the back, yes.

MAN: The comment is just regarding to what has been said. The problem is about the time that the comment of the Minister has said because when we look at the issues of migration or the history of migration to Australia, anybody happens... when the Chinese comes, when all the Vietnamese comes here, the shifting is always there. It's just about the policies. But the point is here, why did the Minister quote this comment in this critical time? So the hidden agenda here, I can say, is all about winning the election. So we afraid that we don't have to be a target of winning election.

JENNY BROCKIE: We don't have the Minister here to answer that and I should point out we did invite him but he couldn't come tonight. I'm going to move on, though. John Gibson, I'm interested in asking you a question, a bigger picture question here, because every country has limits on the number of refugees that it can take. And the Government has said it's shifting the balance to favour refugees from Burma and Iraq. Is it reasonable to slow down the intake from Africa while some of these problems are dealt with?

JOHN GIBSON, REFUGEE COUNCIL OF AUSTRALIA: Look, there are equally compelling reasons for taking the same number of African refugees from Sudan and other countries as there are for saying that we shift our emphasis to Iraq, to the Bhutanese and the Burmese on the border, on the Thai/Burma border. Now, when the Minister announced in August this year the reduction in the number of African refugee humanitarian entrances and said we're shifting because of a perceived need, then we accepted that on face value. Six weeks later, all these other issues came up and one has to have serious concerns about what underlies that statement.

JENNY BROCKIE: Gordon Murray, you're president of the local RSL here at Noble Park. What do you make of all this?

GORDON MURRAY, PRESIDENT, NOBLE PARK RSL: That's right. I've lived in Noble Park for 50-odd years and brought up in a family of six and my wife a family of five and we've brought up kids and grandkids and Noble Park is a great place. I objected it being called a ghetto and a Bronx because in 1956, I was what was called a bodgie and we used to hang around the streets of Noble Park and the local RSL started up a youth club to get us off and the local constabulary used to kick us up the backside and say get home. And then they had a big gang called the 3174, all different multicultural kids. They didn't just pinch stuff out of a bottle shop, they wrecked the shop. The local blokes just recently, local Australians just wrecked the video shop. They were not Sudanese. So it's all racist. So it's all racist and Noble Park is a great place and the RSL is very involved in the community and I think that we probably need in the community probably needs something for these youths to do. Unfortunately, we haven't got the land but someone needs to start up a community centre for all people.

JENNY BROCKIE: Lady here, yes.

WOMAN: I've lived in Noble Park for 59 years, I've raised four children and I run a business in Noble Park, a dancing school. And my husband grew up with Gordon and I grew up with Lynette, his wife, and, we used to all hang around the streets as kids, you know. We were in a group but we weren't.. Because we were white, we weren't, you know, like, it just seems like you see a group of different people from different nationalities and people think... they get frightened and intimidated. But if you walk through, and I've done this myself, you walk through and you smile and you address them and say hello, they're wonderful people, everyone.

JENNY BROCKIE: Helen, you run a business here too. Do you have a different view to that? Are you worried about what's happening in the community?

HELEN DIMOSKI, NOBLE PARK BUSINESS OWNER: I think the majority of Sudanese people are wonderful people also but there is a small minority that are causing problems but I think that the Sudanese people themselves are worried about it too. But I'm sure in time we'll all come to terms with it.

JENNY BROCKIE: Carolyn.

CAROLYN FILLIPONI: I agree with everybody but I sort of disagree. I think there is a problem. I work in the evenings and I have to lock my door because, um, my clients don't feel safe. But I'm in the Noble Park station.

JENNY BROCKIE: And is that because of things that have actually happened or is that just fear?

CAROLYN FILLIOPONI: Both.

JENNY BROCKIE: Both. Paul, you've ramped up the police presence here. By how much, and why have you done that?

PAUL EVANS: We've done it fairly considerably and, look, that is part of the reason to build confidence back in the community. Noble Park is a great community. I mean, if you've been down there, it's a great station, it's clean, it's tidy. The shopping environment is very good, a lot of police members live around there and very proud of Noble Park, and it is a great community, but I think it has a bit of a belting recently, with the media it's had And part of what we've done is ramp it up to give that confidence back into the community.

JENNY BROCKIE: So how much is ramping up about what's happening in terms of crime and how much of it is just making people feel better?

PAUL EVAN: As I said before, we've had a core group of young men who are causing issues, not only issues in the local community, but issues against my police as well. There have been conflicts and assaults on my police as well. So part of that is working, ramping up to put confidence back into the community but actually give that support to getting those that are responsible for the crime.

JENNY BROCKIE: And how long will that last?

PAUL EVANS: That will certainly go for the medium to long term until I feel that the matter has been resolved.

JENNY BROCKIE: Judy, you're Liep's cousin. You heard the story of Liep's death earlier tonight. You received an email recently, didn't you, on a Sudanese website. Can you read that out for us? What did it say?

JUDY TUT: The email said, "What sort of people are you? Run from your country when it needs you. "Arabs killing your people and culture, and you run. Why? Have you no guts to stay and fight for your people? Shame on you. This is what our country is based for gutless that run. This is the only way you can save your people."

JENNY BROCKIE: So clearly, the tensions are running both ways, at the moment. I would like Judy to finish that.

JUDY TUT: Well, they are running both ways. Like, I've been in this country for five years and I've never faced these kind of messages or racist Australian but after what Kevin said, his comments about us..

JENNY BROCKIE: The Minister said.

JUDY TUT: The Minister said we're not integrating or we're not fitting in to Australian way of living and these things are false. If he knows the Sudanese, as these people do, he would not Sudanese are doing a lot of stuff. They're integrating they speak English, they go to school, they go to work, they bought houses, they have mortgages, they're integrating very, very well into the Australian way of living.

JENNY BROCKIE: Paul Evans, has racial tension increased since this became a political issue?

PAUL EVANS: No, I don't think so. Look, there will always be racists in any society, I don't care where you come from. As I said before, particularly around Greater Dandenong, Victoria, Australia as a whole, gee, we've got on well as a multicultural agency. Look, apart from the original Australians we're all imports into this country and I think that's part of the reason why we do get on so well. So, no, I don't think there is, and I think overall we get on really well.

JENNY BROCKIE: A couple of final comments just about how people think some of these issues can be addressed. Up the back, lady there, yes. Just a final comment from you.

WOMAN: Yes, every time the how do you call it? the Minister comment about the cutting down of the refugees, OK, everything got its own time. Maybe it is the time that the slowdown, the intake of the Sudanese but the bad thing is like to connect it to..

JENNY BROCKIE: To connect the two?

WOMAN: To connect the cutting down of the Sudanese with the crime and..

JENNY BROCKIE: So you're saying you would have accepted a cutting-down in the numbers of Sudanese refugees if it hadn't been connected with these other things?

WOMAN: Yeah. And the other thing is, like, he's bringing it up while people are mourning their own son and he's bringing up all these things, we are in pain. We needed support, we needed somebody to say what happened is not good but tying up the cutting-down with the crime is not good. It's not good, really. It's not good.

JENNY BROCKIE: Judy, what would you like to see now? We began the program with the story of Liep, your cousin who died. What would you like to see now happening in this community?

JUDY TUT: Our major problem is education. When we have been..I came here when I was 17 and I was told to go to Year 12. I didn't know...I didn't speak this much English before and, if I was them, I would be depressed, go on the street, drink, stay at Noble Park train station because I cannot study and I cannot go to work because I can barely speak the language.

JENNY BROCKIE: So why didn't you do all that?

JUDY TUT: Because when you see yourself and the support of your family and your mum, I came here with my mum, and she's a single mum, because if I go doing bad stuff and staying at the station and stuff, it will make her feel bad, and I know she left her husband, or the country or her parents for me to have a better life. So that way I became a better person and what is the Minister is forgetting or the other Australians who don't know, when Liep was killed, he was killed being.. He was interrogated. He wasn't killed by Sudanese. He was interrogated.

JENNY BROCKIE: But he had been in trouble, Judy. He had been in trouble.

JUDY TUT: OK, being trouble is not means like, you know, ending up being killed. He was interrogated, and that's what interrogation is. If we interrogate and know that these people are going to hurt us, we're not going to integrate. As she said, she have a shop in Noble Park and her customers, they will lock the door because they're afraid of Sudanese, not because of what happened, but from the look, they look different. We do look different. We are visible to people.

JENNY BROCKIE: Nyadol, just to sum up, I’m interested in why you have ended up the way you have, your at university, you’ve done extremely well, you learnt English in a refugee camp, you had an education in a refugee camp, why do you think it is that you have ended up the way you have and that some of these other young people are really in trouble.

NYADOL NYUON: Partly I think it is because of family support, partly I think it is maybe community support. I have a mother who is very strong and who has helped me but the things that I have gone through have made me stronger. I was born in Ethiopia, I grew up in Kenya, I now I am in Australia and very appreciative of all this background. I think some of the young people don’t understand that there is a lot that you can learn, rather than just be Sudanese you can also be Australian and try to be an Internationalist and view all cultures and they can teach you and in that case I think I have learned a lot from that and it has helped me achieve what I want to be and who I am now.

JENNY BROCKIE: We are going to have to leave it there. I'm sorry. We're completely out of time. I'd like to thank you all very much for joining us here tonight. It's been a very interesting discussion. Thank you. And that is all for this week. In case you're wondering, we did invite Immigration Minister Kevin Andrews and his Labor counterpart Tony Burke to join us tonight but both were unable to make it.

Source: Insight